|| INTERVIEW #1: ON THE PRESENT STATE OF ART, PART 1 C| O| P| KIRK ELBOD: I'm tired of right angles and major Y| chords. There must be more than this to make art out of. R| And stories which have a beginning, middle, and an end; a I| conflict, climax and resolution. Music which is G| exposition, development and recapitulation. Long H| rectangles to frame our pictures, plays, TV screens, and T| visions with. People in the west even dream in || rectangles. They report that they watch their dreams as 1| though projected on a movie screen. 9| There must be much more and yet we've painted 8| ourselves into this corner where we seem compelled to do 9| these things over and over with little variation. || There are times when I wonder if I'm the only one B| who hears the constant cackle of "muzak" in the stores, Y| the malls, the elevators, the telephones on hold. || Homogenized music dripping with major chords, all R| sounding the same. As though I could be lulled by such a I| thing. This muzak is everywhere. It's hard to go to any C| public place and not have it. H| It's getting hard to find silence, anymore. A| And what's worse, it's music which is designed not R| to be heard; it's "background music", just as TV is D| sometimes called movable wall paper. I've decided it is || being used as a mask to hide the noise of the city. Or d| perhaps we tolerate it, because it gives us a sense of e| being hooked into a public address system in case of G| nuclear attack. A| We are being deadened to art. Yet, at the same time R| it may be the only form which can give us meaning; tell I| us who we are. S| (He put his boots on the rickety table, almost || knocking over my cup of coffee. He acted as though he did D| not notice. He stared out at the brilliant sun flickering O| on the water .) B| But I don't mean to be overly negative. I sense that L| things are about to change. E| Take music for example. Now, I do not want to dwell || on music exclusively, but it provides a clear example of A| the dynamics of art in the recent past and also may L| provide an insight into art's future. L| Music moves in hundred year cycles. It's called "the || grandfather relationship" of alternating classical then R| romantic periods. We are at the end of a long classical I| period which has reached a dead end, and we are about to G| break open into a new Romantic period which will have H| plenty of pit falls and dangers, but which will not be a T| dead end. S| I can see by your expression that you do not believe || me. But listen. Stravinsky started out as a romantic and R| ended up a classicist. Schoenberg the same. E| They became overly concerned with form which S| classicists do. So they experimented with dissonance, the E| twelve tone scale, and so on. What had started out as R| primitive expression, such as the Rites of Spring, became V| erudite experiments in sound and noise. And they lost E| their audience in the process. D| It seems that there may be an intrinsic grammar of || sound that each of us carries with us, a basic grammar || which imposes limits on what we perceive as noise and C| what we perceive as music. Just as Norm Chomsky, the O| linguist, has suggested there is an implicit fundamental P| grammar underlying all languages, that each of us is born Y| with. And these modern artists violated that grammar. R| So classical music, in effect, gave up its I| expressive potential to popular music which has G| flourished in this century. H| But artists like Phillip Glass point the way to a T| new music which both sounds good, yet has popular appeal || and at the same time is contained by a new form, a 1| repetitious form. 9| (I felt the need to interrupt him at this point, 8| especially since he had paused and was not giving me one 9| of his dirty looks, which had prevented me from breaking || in earlier.) B| TALBOT: I believe you are contradicting what you Y| said before about being tired of major chords and right || angles. The experiments of the moderns was an attempt to R| get away from major chords... I| ELBOD: (He broke in). Yes, true; but they went about C| it the wrong way. They created noise. They had all the H| world's music to work from, much of which had not been A| explored at the time. Yet many of them chose to create an R| artificial music which most people, even those who love D| music, heard as noise. || Now some of the world's music -folk, formal etc.- is d| seen by our culture as dissonant but it has the e| underlying grammar of music within it. These experiments G| did not. Painting at the beginning of the century drew on A| primitive and African art for much of its inspiration. R| Yet music chose to go down an almost exclusively cerebral I| path, forgetting its primitive, fundamental roots. S| Bela Bartok,on the other hand, was perhaps, the most || important musician who did not forget. He made extensive D| recordings of peasant music in Hungary which inspired O| much of his work. Consequently, I feel that Bartok was B| the most successful of the moderns. L| I have talked with Phillip Glass. He confirmed that E| he draws on a variety of the world's folk music for some || of his creations. And he agreed that other modern A| musicians do the same. So a change is in the air. L| Music is perhaps the clearest example. Yet painting, L| poetry, architecture, all went down the same road. That's || why poetry which used to be popular isn't any longer. R| But all this may change. I| What these modern art forms forgot was the human G| scale. H| Modern buildings, for example, are dehumanizing. T| They are huge, overpowering, impersonal. Contemporary S| poetry and painting appeal to the intellect but not the || heart. R| As my friend Krista says, modern art is afraid to be E| beautiful. In fact, it has shunned beauty for much of the S| last hundred years; it has even been afraid to admit it E| was trying to be beautiful, as though beauty were R| sentimental, maudlin, or crass. Poetry, today, is even V| afraid to rhyme. E| But all this will change. And with it, the forms of D| art will change as well. || (Again he paused and I sensed that he had some || ideas, but also an unease.) C| TALBOT: Can you predict what the new forms might O| look like? P| ELBOD: (Silence, then a long drink of coffee, then a Y| buttoning of his coat as clouds covered the sun, bringing R| a cold breeze that we felt even inside the travel I| trailer.) G| First of all I am not talking about New Age hoopla. H| New Age music, for example, just seems to be a mellower T| muzak. || Nor am I talking about millennium hysteria, the fear 1| that people have we the world goes into a new millennium, 9| the fear of an apocalypse. 8| Now to get back to our discussion. I can see 9| outlines of possibilities. || First, form is important. The traditional form of B| the story which is conflict, climax, resolution leads to Y| us thinking that our lives will be like these stories. || Imbedded in such structures is the idea of progress, or R| progression. I don't know that I believe in progress or I| at least that it should be given as much press as it's C| given. There may be progress from century to century. But H| it may be more important on the human level to live day A| to day, without the denial of the present which progress R| implies. D| Women writers have already suggested this. They || claim that the forms we have used up to now are masculine d| molds. But it is worse than that; they were created by or e| for wealthy, upper class men of power. G| The forms I envision will be structures which A| emphasize "being" more than "becoming." Time's cycle more R| than times arrow to borrow a phrase from Stephen Jay I| Gould. S| I can imagine a literary form, for example in which || the story is about the way people live from day to day, D| season to season, not about the dramatic obstacles they O| overcome. A story in which there is no one hero, but a B| group of people which concern us. Much more like life. L| Oddly enough, in pop culture, we are already seeing E| something like this in a number of TV series. || In recent years we have had programs like Mash, Hill A| Street Blues, and many of the family shows, in which no L| one person is the out and out hero, although certain ones L| stand out a bit. The story is really about the group. And || nothing is basically resolved. The story is more about R| coping within a certain environment instead of conquering I| the environment. G| In Hill Street Blues, for example, you never H| believed that the cops will clean up the city, the way we T| believed in the cop movies of the forties. In fact part S| of the appeal and the pathos is that we knew that they || will always go on struggling. R| These stories are on the human scale. And they have E| been popular. Some people would simply call them prime S| time soap operas, but soap operas are on the human scale. E| And there is no reason why such a form cannot be R| profound. V| In fact in this century the three longest lasting E| programs on radio and TV have been the Metropolitan D| Opera, The Grand Old Opry, and the soap operas. All || opera. Why? Because they fit the human scale. || In the visual form I can see a move away from the C| rectangle which is also a structure that implies movement O| and progress. Frank Stella's paintings, for example, seem P| to be trying to bust out of the confining rectangular Y| frame. Forms might be more evenly balanced.: squares or R| circles. Symmetrical forms imply stasis, being, not I| dynamic movement the way the rectangle does. Perhaps a G| return to what I call "primitive symmetries." H| In serious music the forms will be less dissonant, T| closer to the human voice. My late friend Bruce used to || say that music could never stray to far from the human 1| voice and still work. I believe that. Again the human 9| scale. 8| And buildings. Architects must first of all ask the 9| people who will live in and use the buildings what they || want which they rarely do; then design a plan so that B| people feel at home in the building, not threatened by Y| the building. Architects know how to do this if they will || only direct their attention to it. And they need to get R| away from the right angle box design. Break it up, make I| it more livable. C| The human scale is what's been missing. This will be H| revived in the near future. Meaningful art, beautiful art A| for people who will like it and understand it without R| having to work incredibly hard to appreciate it. D| That's all I have to say. || (With a brush of his hand he dismissed me, and even d| though I protested, he would not say anything further. He e| grabbed my unfinished cup of coffee, removed the table G| cloth, and folded the table against the wall of the A| travel trailer. Without a word, he guided me to the door. R| Then with the faintest of good-bye waves, I found myself I| outside, in the cold wind, listening to him start the S| engine. Abruptly I was watching the rear of his ancient || travel trailer head down the road. I turned away from the D| wind and headed for my car.) O| B| L| E| || INTERVIEW #2: ON THE PRESENT STATE OF ART, PART 2 A| L| L| (It was some months later in the dead of winter, || that I heard from Mr. Elbod again. He invited me to an R| address in Durham. I| On a cold, sunny morning about ten o'clock in late G| January, I found myself wandering around a section of H| town on the wrong side of the tracks, looking for a house T| with a closed in front porch. When I finally located it, S| I knocked on the glass door. To my surprise Kirk slowly, || graciously opened the door and admitted me into what I R| discovered was a sun room. He was dressed in a Japanese E| robe, and this time his hair was brushed. His manner was S| calm, quiet, almost formal. I had trouble believing that E| this was the same person I had meet before. R| He guided me to a sofa where he offered me a cup of V| tea. Leaning back into the soft couch, I felt I had been E| transported to another sphere. I was surrounded by lush D| plants. The sun, filtering through the fiberglass panels, || warmed the room and my body as though I were in the || tropics. Although I could not see through the translucent C| fiberglass, I could hear people coughing in the cold O| winter air, as they hurried along the sidewalk, just a P| few feet outside the door. I looked up and realized Kirk Y| had said nothing. He sat back quietly, sipping on his R| tea, as though waiting for me to speak. I| I was so taken back by this difference in his manner G| and the unexpected surroundings that I could not think of H| what to say. But eventually a question came to mind, and T| the interview began.) || TALBOT: I have gone over the notes of our last 1| conversation and wondered about several things. (Kirk 9| motioned for me to go on.) It seems to me that there have 8| been a number of romantic periods in the 20th century 9| even though you call it a classical period. The revolt in || the sixties, for example, and the abstract expressionist B| paintings in the fifties. Y| ELBOD: Very perceptive of you. I believe that both || are true. No period is purely classical or romantic. R| These are two themes which are always playing off each I| other. When one is dominant, then the other is less C| obvious but still around. The paintings of Jackson H| Pollack, for example, were very romantic although he was A| also intensely concerned with the formal demands of R| painting. But once he had mastered these formal aspects, D| he was able to express himself freely through his new || form. In fact, the delicate balance he had to walk d| between form and expression, which would not have been so e| great in a romantic age, may have added to his anguish. G| TALBOT: Also you seem very concerned about new forms A| in a new romantic age. Since form is a classical concern R| why is form so important to the romantics? I| ELBOD: (His eyes brightened and I felt that he was S| warming a bit to me as a person.) Romantics need an || appropriate form too. But form is not their primary D| concern. Expression is their primary concern and the form O| should allow that expression as much full rein as B| possible. The message, or the expression is communicated L| in part by the form itself. The medium may be the message E| to borrow from McCluhan. So the forms they use are || important. But form is not their forte. Also they have A| the benefit of a hundred years of classical experiments L| in form that they can draw on. L| TALBOT: A ha! (I said rather boldly) so the || classicists are not all bad. They can be useful even to R| the romantics. I| ELBOD: (A little taken back by my manner) I do not G| want to side with either end of the spectrum - classical H| or romantic. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. T| It's just now, at the end of the 20th century, that this S| leg of classicism has run its course. I am personally || tired of it since I have had to live within it all my R| life. But I am sure I would be yearning for a classical E| period if I had been forced to live in a purely romantic S| era. These two cultural forces have gone and will go back E| and forth for hundreds of years. Nietzsche called the two R| basic forces the Apollonian -order, classicism- and the V| Dionysian -expression, romanticism. E| TALBOT: So is it good we are entering a new romantic D| era? || ELBOD: Perhaps. It will be nice for a change. But || every period has extreme dangers and it's important to C| always keep this in mind. O| Remember that the last romantic era was ushered in P| by the French Revolution with all its grand ideas, which Y| turned into a dictatorial "Reign of Terror" and R| eventually a war in Europe. Yet it was the excesses of I| the classical era, the age of reason, which lead to the G| revolution. So one leads to the other, both can be H| disastrous, and we must not let ourselves get carried T| away, carried to extremes, which people usually do in an || era of expression. 1| The extreme control of feeling, the sterility of the 9| last fifty years or so may have been a reaction to the 8| passions of Hitler and the Nazis. We learned to be afraid 9| of emotion. But in fact the opposite may be true. As Carl || Jung points out, if emotions and feelings are not given B| expression, this repressed side of ourselves will Y| eventually express itself in some manner, perhaps in || horrible ways. R| So the point is that we need to change as a culture, I| in fact we must change or face serious consequences, as I C| will explain another time. But we need to be aware that H| change unleashes forces of its own which must be kept at A| bay. R| (A cloud briefly covered the sun and I suddenly felt D| cold. It seemed strange to me that a cloud could have || such an immediate effect, within this artificial d| environment. But then the sun returned, and I was again e| cozy in this solar environment.) G| TALBOT: You talked last time about a new imagery and A| sources for this new art that you foresee, could you R| elaborate? I| ELBOD: We need to go into the past and into the S| future. In the past I think that the Middle Ages was very || rich in terms of imagery for the visual arts, a period D| ignored since the Renaissance because of prejudice and O| ideas of progress. Even the name for this period, given B| to it by the Renaissance, was biased and condescending. L| There was a sense of symmetry and perspective, however E| naive, which I find powerful and charming. And a sense of || unity. || For abstract art and modern iconography, there are C| new and beautiful forms such as satellite views of the O| world which are, by now, very extensive. The space P| explorations which have taken place in the last twenty Y| years have provided incredible photographs of the other R| planets and their moons. In addition to this there are I| photos from electron microscopes, images of extremely G| small things. There are also moments frozen in tiny H| slices of time in fast action photography. And slow T| movements speeded up to reveal unseen patterns in time || lapse photography. And then there are computer generated 1| images such as fractals which are crystalline like 9| structures, and cellular automata which look like life 8| forms. And a host of other unique computer imagery. 9| In music, I have already said that the world's folk || music should be a source, but also the medieval period B| and the renaissance as well. In addition the new Y| electronic instruments are capable of making unique tones || which can imitate and revive much of the lost "sounds" of R| these periods. Not to mention the unusual quality of many I| of the world's non-western musical instruments. C| In literature, I think I would mine the world's folk H| stories. There are a wealth of fairy tales, folk epics, A| myth, etc. which have not been touched. R| Essays might be more conversational, more like life. D| For example, a series of essays could be constructed || around the conversations of two fictitious characters and d| the situations that they found themselves in. e| But all art should spring from a real heart felt G| need, not merely a desire to be fashionable. For example, A| Hip Hop Art, which came out of the desperate situation in R| the Bronx in the late seventies, was a spontaneous I| flowering of music, painting and dance. Now you may or S| may not like all of it; I personally didn't like most of || the rap music, although I thought the break dancing was D| very exciting, and the graffiti a fresh approach to O| panting. But in any case, it was a response to a real B| need, and this art meet that need in creative and life L| affirming ways. E| I think art needs to be a way to understand the || world we live in. A form which gives meaning to things we A| cannot understand. Paul Klee, the painter, said "Just as L| a child imitates us in his playing, we [ the artists ] in L| our playing imitate the forces which created and create || the world." R| So there are some of my ideas. I| TALBOT: Whew! That was some list. But let me turn to G| another item we discussed last time. It seemed to me that H| much of what you were criticizing such as the heroes of T| the past were romantic heroes. The cops who cleaned up S| the city were romantic ideals. || ELBOD: Yes, they were. They were a carry-over form R| the romantic era. But with a classical twist. They were E| unfeeling, poker faced, and we knew very little about S| them personally, such as Eliot Ness of the Untouchables. E| And the message that they had for us is wrong. For R| example, I was watching the Lone Ranger, the other night, V| on CBN cable channel, and got to wondering about him as a E| hero. Now mind you, I was brought up with the Lone Ranger D| as an ideal when I was a kid. These pop images are || important to us, especially children, because they give || us a role model. C| The Lone Ranger is not part of any community, has no O| mother, father, brothers, sisters, wife, or children. He P| is completely alone except for his faithful Indian Y| companion Tonto and his horse, Silver. Moreover he has no R| visible means of support. In short this guy is about as I| far from the real world as you can get. Then to top it G| all off he rides into town, straightens everything up, H| completely, and then rides out. What an image to teach to T| our children! No wonder they are frustrated in their || lives if this is the hero they want to be like. 1| In addition, we do not know much about the Lone 9| Ranger's feelings, except for a very limited range of 8| expression. Of course the mask doesn't help. (Kirk 9| laughs.) || To highlight the difference between the Lone Ranger B| and a contemporary drama, consider this: We can imagine Y| Hawkeye, of Mash, turning to one of this friends and || saying "I'm depressed" and the friend replying "Do you R| want to talk about it?" and they do. But can you imagine I| the Lone Ranger turning to Tonto and saying "I'm C| depressed" and Tonto replying "Do you want to talk about H| it, Kimosabe?" Its inconceivable. A| TALBOT: I must say you strain my mind by jumping R| from Nietzsche to the Lone Ranger but ... D| ELBOD: I think most people make a big mistake to || think that culture operates in two different worlds, the d| serious and the popular. I may get tired of the popular e| much sooner than the serious, although not always, but G| the appeal of the popular, its message, is important to A| an understanding the world. R| TALBOT: But what I really don't understand about you I| is "where you are coming from" as they say. What is you S| frame of mind? || ELBOD: Well! This will be hard for you to understand D| I can tell, but I'll do my best. O| I am not "coming from" one discipline, one point of B| view, one perspective. I am coming from a number of L| places, and sometimes all at the same time. I attempt to E| see the world as a set of interrelated and interdependent || ways of looking. My task for years has been to join A| together as many of these as I can, into my world view. L| I have avoided getting stuck in one perspective. For L| example, I make an effort to get my news from a diverse || number of sources. I find that shortwave radio, for R| example, lets me get a sense of the day's news from a I| world perspective. And I might add, the cost of a small G| short wave radio is very cheap right now. H| I am also a good listener. I have a number of T| friends, who are experienced in quite different S| disciplines, and I listen to what each of them has to || say. R| And then I have run my own business. Business can E| encourage directness, honesty, clear evaluation of a S| situation, realistic understanding of costs, problems and E| objectives. In our future discussions, for example, I R| will talk about environmental problems. And one of my V| main concerns is that the society has not taken into E| account the full cost of the different technologies. D| By having a diverse number of disciplines and || sources to draw on, I have a large repertoire of || experiences, of metaphors and models which help me to C| understand of the world. O| Let me give you an example. When computer P| programmers started putting together what are called Y| "expert systems" they asked a number of experts in R| different of fields to describe how they thought, how I| they made decisions, solved problems etc. The goal of the G| programmers was to create a computerized system which H| could imitate an expert's thinking. To the programmer's T| surprise they found that many experts used models, || images, and metaphors from areas outside their own 1| discipline. And these other ways of approaching a 9| situation were part of their repertoire of problem 8| solving procedures. 9| Let me ask you, have you ever done any sailing? || TALBOT: What? (Taken a back.) No. Yes. Well once or B| twice. Y| ELBOD: If you have you may have realized that in || sailing you don't just aim the boat and go straight from R| point A to point B, the way you do in a motor boat. You I| often tack, which means you go back and forth several C| times. To a person who is not experienced in sailing, it H| might even look as if you are going backwards. People who A| sail may say to each other that it will take three tacks R| to get from point A to point B, for example. D| Now I find this image of tacking very useful when || I'm solving problems. Because maybe I can't solve a d| problem in a straight line. Maybe I'll have to go one e| step back, two steps forward several times to get where G| I'm trying to go. And my experience with sailing in A| useful in this regard. R| So the tacking metaphor is just one of a number of I| images from numerous disciplines that I use to understand S| the world. || TALBOT: Well, I'll have to mull all that over, but D| to get back to our discussion ... O| ELBOD: Yes, I was about to make another point B| related to what I just said. We may be going through a L| sea change, in which there will be a new romantic era, E| but something else as well. Hopefully a new || sophistication, an understanding of how we are all linked A| together. How we are all in the same boat. Computers and L| technology will play a major part in this change. In fact L| computers will probably be as earth shaking as the || invention of the printing press, but that is another R| interview. I| The point I am making is this: our role as G| individuals is not to prevail over the world at any H| expense, or to be immortal, a false hope if there ever T| was one. S| The point is to be a link in the chain of existence. || To carry the legacy of our parents into the world and R| make a difference to those who will come after us and E| look to us for sustenance. S| A new art form should reflect this. Show how each of E| us is an individual and yet imbedded in our community, R| family, work, period of history. We must no longer be V| seen as lone separate individuals against a barren E| background, but as individuals who are inextricably D| immeshed with the world. || A cyclic art, a symmetrical art, which is well done || and not boring, may be the beginnings of such an era. An C| art which stresses being instead than striving. O| I think the art of J.S. Bach comes the closest. The P| music is more a state of mind that a movement toward a Y| conclusion, the way the music of Beethoven is, for R| example, even though I love his work. When you hear I| Bach's exquisite sounds it doesn't really matter where G| the music is going. He has created a state that you live H| within, until it is over. Yet the music moves forward, T| toward an end, but that does not take away from the notes || of the moment. Bach's music is an easy balance between 1| movement toward a conclusion and the enjoyment of it, in 9| the present. 8| Perhaps this is the model we should look to. Lewis 9| Thomas has suggested in "Lives of a Cell" that a Bach || fugue would be the ideal piece to send to aliens to tell B| them about us. It is obviously created by an intelligent Y| mind, and it does not require any language or other || skills to appreciate. R| The other day I was at a Wendy's. Out of the PA I| system I heard a Bach chorale arranged for Muzak. I was C| amazed. It still sounded good. Even distorted by the H| Muzak I hate, it survived. Now that's a good piece of art A| that can suffer that kind of transformation and still R| work. D| (With that he began to put the tea cups on a tray, || and I realized the interview was over. I started to speak d| but could see the return of the look I had seen in the e| interview before, which prevented me from continuing. He G| graciously ushered me out the door with no indication A| whether we would meet again. But I realized he had R| mentioned the possibility of another interview, so I was I| hopeful.) S|