|| INTERVIEW #5: SCIENCE, PART 1 C| O| P| (It seemed like a long time before my next interview Y| with Kirk Elbod. And something was starting to bother me. R| Each time he seemed quite different. I could not I| reconcile the different aspects of this man. But even so G| I was again quite unprepared for what happened next. H| In late March, when I was able to contact him, we T| agreed to meet about 1 P.M. It was a warm early spring || day, with blue sky and puffy clouds. I arrived at the 1| address he had given me which turned out to be the back 9| parking lot of a large teaching hospital, where 8| considerable research was being conducted. He meet me at 9| the rear entrance. This time he wore a white smock and || looked very professional, almost technical. Another B| costume change, it seemed. He lead me down a long narrow Y| hallway, then up a flight of stairs, into an elevator, up || two stories, then along another narrow passageway. We R| never went by a window the entire time. When we arrived I| at a small room full of technicians and whirring video C| tape machines, I was thoroughly confused. H| Through a one-way mirror we could see young medical A| students conducting mock interviews with patients. Kirk R| seemed to be in charge, since the technicians looked up D| and smiled at him. He explained to me that medical || instructors would review these tapes and then give the d| aspiring doctors feedback on their interviewing style, as e| part of the medical curriculum at this hospital. G| He lead me into an adjoining room, closed the door, A| and made me a cup of instant coffee with instant cream. R| The room had no windows, only pale green walls, and I| bright fluorescent lights. We could hear the murmur of S| the machines and interviews from the next room. || He began.) D| ELBOD: Science has suffered from its own sense of O| the heroic, not unlike what occurred in the arts. In B| addition it is driven by notions, which are themselves L| are unscientific. I have no objection to these notions, E| but I want to put all the cards on the table. I believe || they need to be examined out in the open. A| TALBOT: (I was totally unprepared for this. Now L| science was the subject. Could he really understand and L| have an overview of science as well? As if to answer my || thoughts he continued.) R| ELBOD: Now don't get me wrong I am not a scientist. I| But I am a student of the history of science and I know G| enough to realize that my view of the world is heavily H| influenced by scientific thinking. And its unspoken, T| underlying assumptions affect my world view. S| I am not an enemy of science. In fact I feel quite || comfortable with its framework. I believe that solutions R| to many of our problems will come from science and E| technology. But science must be understood for what it S| is. E| TALBOT: What did you mean it had suffered from a R| sense of the heroic? V| ELBOD: Current scientific theories are spotlighted E| like conquering heroes while previous theories are D| degraded to footnotes. Science usually has a || condescending attitude toward older beliefs, as though || the ideas of today were intrinsically superior. C| Now mind you, science has been very successful in O| the last four hundred years. But science is a process, P| like most of human thought. And to forget how we arrived Y| at current ideas is to miss much of the meaning of human R| thinking, plus to pass over a rich storehouse of ideas I| which may be useful in the future. In addition all modern G| theories will probably be modified, or completely H| changed, as we collect new and more accurate data. So it T| is a good idea for us to have some humility about their || ultimate truth. 1| Let me give you a good example of what I mean. 9| TALBOT: (as though he needed encouragement) Please 8| do. (I said with a soupcon of sarcasm.) 9| ELBOD: (A tinge of his former glare crossed his || face). The Ptolemaic universe has become a cliche for bad B| astronomical ideas. It described the sun, moon, and Y| planets moving around the Earth in perfect circles, and || circles within circles called epicycles. This idea was R| superseded by Copernicus who put the sun at the center of I| the solar system. His idea was refined by Kepler who C| described the planet's orbits as ellipses, not circles. H| So Ptolemy was discredited. When I studied astronomy A| Ptolemy's ideas, when they were mentioned at all, were R| described in disparaging terms, as foolish ideas that D| finally got corrected by the modern world. || But first of all, it does look as though the sun and d| the moon and the planets move around the Earth, so it was e| not foolish of him to assume this. Secondly his system G| was fairly accurate. It described the movements of the A| heavenly bodies reasonably well and was useful for the R| buildup of knowledge, the accurate observations, the I| necessary data so essential to astronomy or any science. S| The fact that his system was accurate gave astronomy a || basis for Copernicus to work with. Now Copernicus's D| system of putting the sun at the center also used perfect O| circles, and epicycles, about as many as Ptolemy. So B| Copernicus did not totally refute Ptolemy, in fact he L| used a number of his ideas. Thus it really took a third E| genius, Kepler, to make the final discovery, that the || heavenly bodies moved in ellipses, not circles. A| But I have discovered through my own independent L| research that there is more to this story. Ptolemy's L| system was so precise, machines could be made which would || accurately imitate the movement of the planets, sun, and R| moon. Some people referred to these as astronomical I| clocks. They were created based on Ptolemy's G| understanding of epicycles. These machines became an H| essential component for the creation of clocks. And T| clocks became the "key machine of the modern industrial S| age" according to the book "A History of the Machine" by || Strandh. R| Twenty years before he discovered his theories, E| Kepler was driven by the desire to prove that the solar S| system ran like a clock, the very clock that might not E| have existed without Ptolemy. R| So a discredited theory may have a lot more truth V| and life to it than we have been led to believe. E| Stephan Jay Gould in his book "Time's Arrow And D| Time's Cycle" has pointed out that this attitude of || denigrating and distorting past thinkers is also true in || geology. I must assume that it is true in just about C| every branch of science. And science does us and itself a O| disservice by not regarding past theory in a better P| light. Y| (Outside in the hall we could hear one set of people R| leaving their mock interview session, and another set I| arriving.) G| Me: Okay you have made your point but what do you H| mean that science has been driven by notions which are in T| itself unscientific. || ELBOD: I'll give you one example. Plato's story of 1| the cave describes people living in a cave who take 9| shadows to be reality. But outside the cave is the real 8| world. Plato uses this metaphor to encourage people to 9| see the underlying world, the real world of ideas, not || the shadows we take to be reality. B| Science has been driven by this marvelous story as Y| well as others, as it should be. It has searched for the || hidden meaning under the everyday. And the story drives R| us as much today as it did then. I| TALBOT: So why do you argue against it? C| ELBOD: For two reasons. First: that Plato's myth of H| the cave is not scientific in itself. But it affects the A| attitudes of scientists. They believe this idea, they R| have faith in it, so they look for immutable, underlying D| laws of nature. || Second: I want to modify this idea. I do not believe d| that we will ever and for all time discover the absolute e| scientific truth. Science is a process of building, G| refining, gathering data, increasing accuracy. And I A| consider it very improbable that right now we have the R| truth or that we will ever have the whole truth at any I| point in the foreseeable future. The search for reality S| may be a process of seeing things slightly more clearly || step by step, but I doubt that we will ever be able to D| step into the full light of day as Plato proposed and see O| the world forever as one unchanging set of ideas. B| The greatest twentieth century scientist, Albert L| Einstein, agreed. Campbell in the book "Grammatical Man" E| said that Einstein "held firmly to the view that a formal || theory does not describe the facts of experience, but is A| freely invented by the mind." Einstein, in his later L| years said "it is the theory which decides what we can L| observe." || In short, there are limits on what we can know. R| Modern science confirms this. No one can say, for example I| what things were like before the big bang, before the G| universe began, because the laws of the universe did not H| exist. T| The new science of chaos can say with certainty that S| some weather systems are too unstable to be predictable. || I can foresee weather predictions which indicate how R| reliable the forecast itself is. For example, a weather E| report might go like this: there is an 80% chance that S| our prediction of 30% chance of rain is accurate. (He E| laughed.) R| The inclination is too feel that science has lost V| power when It reaches a limit of understanding. But I, E| instead, feel that it has gained power. We are better D| off, for example, knowing that a weather prediction might || be unreliable than believing that it is accurate. We are || better off realizing that theories are constructs of the C| mind which mesh with reality, but are not in themselves O| the real world. My friend Monty reminded me that root P| meaning of the word "theory" is "a seeing", in short the Y| world seen from one point of view. R| But I have a further point to make. It is the I| perspective we take that determines a lot of what we G| believe. H| TALBOT: Are you trying to say that belief is T| relative to perspective? || ELBOD: Yes, at least at times. 1| TALBOT: I think this time you've gone too far. 9| ELBOD: For example, no one believes now that the 8| world is flat. But from my perspective on the ground it 9| appears flat and driving down the highway on the ground || it had better be flat or I'm in big trouble. B| For people to believe the world was round they had Y| to take a broader perspective. Copernicus relied on || reports, from travelers who had gone to different parts R| of the world, to support his claim that the Earth was I| round, which was also part of his theory. He noted that C| travelers saw the constellations lower and higher in the H| sky, depending on where they had gone. From this wider A| perspective, a composite point of view put together from R| reports of long distance travel, it made logical sense to D| deduce the world was round. || Another example: Einstein is considered to be truer d| than Newton. But you can still build almost any kind of e| machine, such as the Space Shuttle, using Newton's G| equations. Einstein's equations are too complicated for A| everyday use. So we tend to think of the world in R| Newtonian terms because it is easier for us from our I| everyday perspective. S| Lewis Thomas mentioned in "Lives of a Cell" that || most microbes are not interested in attacking humans. D| Even if people knew this, most would not change their O| attitudes, since it is the harmful microbes that can B| cause havoc. From our perspective we're not about to pick L| and choose. So again what we believe, depends on our E| perspective. || TALBOT: So what is your point about all of this? A| ELBOD: (Now somewhat angry at my incredulity.) L| We must never believe that we have the truth once L| and for all. We need to respect past work that lead to || current belief. We should realize that our own psychology R| enters, as it must, into what we believe. And we ought to I| take all these gifts of science with a grain of salt. G| (With that he lead me out the door and down the H| hallway. He said, " I've got work to do - I'm sure you T| can find you way back." Then he left quickly on an S| elevator. It took me twenty minutes of wandering past || labs, doctors, and patients before I found my way out. R| Even then I was on the opposite side of this huge E| hospital from where my car was parked. Another ten S| minutes and I found it. I wondered if this, indeed, was E| our last interview.) R| V| E| D| || INTERVIEW #6: SCIENCE, PART 2 || C| O| (After our last encounter, I was unsure whether I P| would continue these discussions with Mr. Elbod. He Y| seemed a bit touchy, or at least ready to take offense. R| So I reacted with some surprise when he called and I| invited me to continue our discussion. I went to meet him G| at the building which I decided must be his home, the old H| house on the wrong side of the tracks. T| On a beautiful day about 2 P.M. in early April, I || drive over. The sun was warm; daffodils were in bloom; 1| even the sky was blue. I assumed that we would sit either 9| on his porch or in his backyard and enjoy the fine 8| afternoon, but as usual I was mistaken. 9| Kirk meet me at the door and quickly, after pouring || me a mug of tea, ushered me down a long dark hallway, B| then down the stairs, into his basement where it was Y| pitch black except for the faint glow of yellow lights || around the room. R| I realized I was in a photographic darkroom. And I| Kirk was at work developing photographs. Because my eyes C| were still used to the sunlight, I could hardly see a H| thing, He guided me to a chair. I sat down and pondered A| how much I knew about this man. Each time the situation R| was different. Each time I was unprepared. And yet I had D| to admit that he held my interest. || As my eyes became accustomed to the faint yellow d| light, I could see that Kirk was printing photographs of e| crystalline structures, or at least it seemed that way. G| They looked like microscopic images of snowflakes or A| aerial photographs of a mountainous terrain. I could not R| tell the scale which was very unnerving. I| TALBOT: What size are these? S| ELBOD: Whatever size appeals to you (he said || mysteriously, annoyingly) D| TALBOT: They must have been a certain size when you O| took them. (I insisted, a bit peeved.) B| ELBOD: It really doesn't matter. Besides I want you L| to look at them and wonder about the scale. That way you E| will look more closely. || TALBOT: (very frustrated) Is this another one of A| your tricks? Are you trying to intimidate me? L| ELBOD: (From a dark corner, where I could only hear L| his voice, and see his shadow.) No, I have no tricks. I || just want you to look at things in a new way. And one way R| to do that is to put you in different situation where the I| world is not as familiar. Perhaps in this way you can G| begin to see things you have taken for granted. H| TALBOT: (surprised by the directness of his answer) T| Okay, then tell me why you invited me here. S| ELBOD: These photographs of the real world you see || here are fractal like. Fractal is a world invented by a R| mathematician named Mandelbrot. It fractal describes an E| object in which the structure is repeated so that the S| large overview and the magnified close-up view are E| similar. Broccoli is a good natural example because the R| large branches and the tiny sprigs are roughly the same V| structural shape. Clouds also have similarities on large E| and small scales. D| Mandelbrot had an unusual way of looking at the || world. He asked some intriguing questions and come up || with unusual answers, which relate to our discussion of C| last time when we talked about the possibility that O| scientific truth was relative to perspective. P| Mandelbrot arrived at the same conclusion by asking Y| very simple questions, such as how long is the coast line R| of England? I| TALBOT: That seems easy enough, we could look it up G| in a book. H| ELBOD: Perhaps. But what Mandelbrot asserted was T| that the answer to that question was relative to the size || of the measuring stick. The coastline was a fractal-like 1| structure and very irregular. You needed to measure from 9| jutting point to jutting point. But if the measuring 8| stick was ten yards long, you got a very different answer 9| than if the measuring device was one hundredth of an inch || long. The bigger measuring stick went from large point to B| large point. The smaller one went around every tiny Y| pebble. So the total length was be different. || TALBOT: I must admit it seems true and almost R| obvious when you think about it. I| ELBOD: Exactly. This is something that just about C| anyone could have figured out by thinking about it. It H| didn't take sophisticated equipment to arrive at the A| answer. R| Mandelbrot is part of a new branch of science called D| the Science of Chaos, which studies things like || turbulence, and regular behavior such as a dripping water d| faucet which can become very irregular when the flow of e| water is increased. G| To me the intriguing thing is that these scientists A| are looking at phenomena from the outside looking in. R| Newtonian and Cartesian science, i.e. classical science, I| has been analytical, meaning that things were understood S| by breaking them down into their component parts and then || understanding how each part operated. D| Chaos is looking at seemingly random behavior and O| seeing large patterns. It is not trying to predict what B| an individual particle will do. Surprisingly these L| patterns that they have discovered seem to apply as much E| to the stock market as to periodic outbreaks of disease, || to weather patterns and to heart palpitations, as well as A| a host of other seemingly unrelated areas. L| What I find exciting is that science, itself, seems L| to be going through a major change, not unlike the change || going on in the art world. (Kirk's voice seemed to be R| coming out the the darkness, disembodied, all voice and I| no person, echoing as though this room of soft yellow G| light were itself speaking.) H| TALBOT: I assume the basic tenets of science will T| always be the same. S| ELBOD: Perhaps. But it is a very different || perspective to look at things as wholes and not as R| pieces. Buckminster Fuller in 1969 pointed out that two E| metals when put together in an alloy will create a much S| stronger material than could be predicted by looking at E| the two metals separately. He pleaded with the scientific R| community to start looking at things from a whole systems V| approach, rather than only from an analytical and E| reductive approach. D| Now the newest science, the Science of Chaos, is || getting away from some ideas that have been with us for a || very long time. But let me back track to the beginnings C| of science. O| TALBOT: Please do, nice of you to ask. P| ELBOD: (with a cross between a groan and a laugh) Y| Francis Bacon, who created the empirical method in the R| 16th century, reacted against a powerful academic way of I| thinking, a group called the Scholastics, who emphasized G| discussion and rhetoric more than verifiable facts. He H| thought that their methods of inquiry were leading T| nowhere so he created a method which could be repeated || and verified. Independent people could run the same 1| experiment and come up with the same results if an idea 9| was correct. 8| TALBOT: Sounds reasonable. 9| ELBOD: But any study or discipline is always || affected by the way it began. In order to come up with B| "objective results" scientists had to limit themselves to Y| phenomena which could be quantified, experimented on, || mathematized, and laboratized. (Even in the dark I could R| sense that he was saying this humorously.) Galileo's I| passion was to mathematize the world a bit like C| Pythagoras, the Greek, who thought that numbers had H| magical qualities. A| So science, from the very beginning limited itself R| in order to come up with results which could be proven D| using the empirical method. Newton spoke of explaining || "all corporeal things" i.e material things, but he did d| not intend to explain everything. But five hundred years e| later we seem to have forgotten this. So no wonder we are G| materialistic, since this is what we hold to be true. A| Now, as I've said before I am not a scientist - just R| an interested layman. And scientists may be more humble I| about their limitations than what filters down to the S| layman. But in any case, to the layman it appears that || science thinks it has the whole truth or at least the D| lion's share. O| For example, when I go to a doctor I expect the B| doctor to tell me about myself. He is supposed to be L| objective and understand my body better than I do. Most E| doctors, in my experience, do not try to listen to their || patients, to work with them and give them the information A| they need to understand their own bodies. They will L| merely give them some pills. This kind of thinking has L| added to a sense of alienation. A feeling that we are not || really in touch, even with our own flesh. But doctors R| have the option to educate patients, to make them I| participants in their own diagnosis and treatment. My G| friend Greg, the best doctor I ever met, has a saying H| that if "he listened to a patient carefully enough, the T| patient would tell him what was wrong." This is a very S| different attitude from most doctors that I have come in || contact with. R| TALBOT: But medicine has been perhaps as successful E| as any science in the last couple of hundred years. Life S| expectancy used to be thirty years to forty years. E| Diseases such as typhoid, smallpox, polio, cholera have R| been virtually eliminated from modern society. Not to V| mention the plagues. The creation of antibiotics has E| meant, for example, that there is rarely a need to D| amputate anymore due to infection. || ELBOD: I agree and I want to emphasize that science || works very well in the areas that it has set out to C| study. But it is only studying a part of "reality" not O| all of reality. In fact at the very beginning it had to P| call the part of reality it could not study "subjective" Y| in order to define what areas it would concern itself R| with. But after hundreds of years, the term "subjective" I| has come to mean something unverifiable and therefore, to G| be discounted. H| But I want to make a further point: Scientists T| themselves have been driven by very subjective factors || which have resulted in some of the greatest discoveries. 1| Kepler, as I mentioned last time, was driven by "the 9| desire to find universal laws which would show that the 8| universe operated like clockwork", to quote Burke from 9| "The Day the Universe Changed". In addition Kepler wanted || to prove that the universe moved according to a musical B| harmony, similar to the idea of Pythagoras in ancient Y| Greece. This sense of harmony was crucial to his || discoveries. Einstein, when he was a teenager, asked the R| basic question: What would the world look like if I were I| riding on a beam of light? He spent the rest of his life C| working out the implications of this question. H| These men were driven, by visions which were not in A| themselves scientific. R| Galileo even said at one point that the world was D| the way he described it, because he could not "imagine" || it any other way. Imagination is a very subjective d| quality. And in a sense we have been limited by Galileo's e| imagination ever since. G| James Burke has gone so far to suggest that all A| scientific knowledge is relative. He quotes the R| philosopher Wittgenstein "You see what you want to see" . I| To quote Burke "If you believe that the universe is made S| of omelette, you design instruments to find traces of || intergalactic egg." D| TALBOT: There is a lot of evidence that in the past O| science has tried to find what it wanted to find, until B| someone came along much later and pointed out L| inconsistencies. E| ELBOD: Exactly. The science did, in fact, self- || correct over time. Which is the point that Burke misses. A| Truth may be relative as I am suggesting, but it is L| relative in certain ways and not in others. Einstein was L| very specific about the ways that space-time was || relative. He was not flaky about it. R| And here's another example: The Earth is basically a I| sphere when looked at from above, as in NASA photographs, G| not flat as a pancake. So from that perspective high H| overhead, it would be hard to assert anything different. T| The proof is in the pudding. I know that an engine S| can be built using Newton's formulas. I doubt that it || could be built if I thought the universe was made of R| omelet. E| However, I also believe that truth is related to our S| perspective, which does not discredit an idea, it merely E| means that the perspective must be taken into account. R| The pragmatic philosopher Pierce said "Something is V| true in so far as it furthers inquiry." I find this to be E| a very useful way of looking at truth. Some ideas were D| truer than others because they were more fruitful and || because they led to the next set of major discoveries. || But even the best scientific ideas will change, perhaps C| radically, over time. O| So in the study of the history of science, I think P| it would be useful to look at why some ideas were more Y| pregnant than others, even though our ideas may be quite R| different now. Why were some theories more useful in I| "furthering inquiry" than others, why were some truer G| than others? This is one area that science should concern H| itself with in the future. T| TALBOT: Where do you see science going from here? || ELBOD: According to what I read, we are going from a 1| science which has been materialistic, exclusive of other 9| ideas, "objective" while condemning the "subjective", to 8| a new view of science which is inclusive, that reconciles 9| many of the separations of mind and matter, || objective/subjective, that existed in the old scientific B| view, a science which can accept it's own limitations. Y| Einstein himself, as I suggested last time, thought || that science was not discovering the ABSOLUTE TRUTH with R| a capital "T" but rather discovering a human way of I| understanding the world, truth with a small "t" as seen C| from a human perspective. H| But I think there is something else as well. As I A| have said scientists have been driven by models such as R| Kepler's clock, visions like Einstein's teenage vision, D| and imagination such as that of Galileo. We need to || understand the forces which lead us down certain paths d| and not down other paths in science. We need to e| understand the forces that drive science as well as G| understand the specific science. Burke has said A| "Knowledge would then properly include the study of the R| structure [ of science ] itself." We need to question the I| questions, not just the answers. This would be the S| creation of a "meta-science", if you will, a science || looked at from one step above. D| Some years ago the psychologist Maslow suggested O| that psychologists keep all their notes and let others in B| the scientific community see them so that scientists L| could share their own individual creative and thinking E| processes, unedited. I know that this would be || frightening for many scientists, but it would be useful. A| To sum up what I have been saying: Science needs to L| be put in perspective. It does not have a lock on the L| truth. It has limits. But it has been remarkably || successful in the areas where it has directed it's R| attention. And we will definitely need its help in the I| future. G| (With that he turned on the bright bare bulb in the H| middle of the room. I was unprepared for this. My eyes T| were now accustomed to the darkness. He said that he had S| to go. He led me up the stairs and out the door into the || sun lit day. I felt blinded. He shook my hand, which he R| never had before. Then he left for another appointment. I E| stood outside in the driveway, with bright spots before S| my eyes. Then I sat in my automobile until my vision had E| returned to normal.) R| V| E| D| ||